Tribal stage and weaponry

[Raggs]

I'm interested in just how much weaponry helps? Is a spear so much better than bite, that it's not necessarily worth investing that much in your biting ability?

Will a natural predator, capable of massive damage normally, be basically worthless without a weapon? Or can your tribe rely on their natural abilities to fight still?

[Willjam]

Raggs i guess the weaponry is to grass eater creature so they can defent them self, and also try to image if our time warriors run over and bite someone it looks stupid the Tribe step is where the creature goes from animal to something more clever

[Raggs]

Guns aren't in the tribal stage. So sticking to spears etc, there's plenty of creatures that have lived on earth that wouldn't give a damn if you waved a pointed stick at them. They'd eat you in a single gulp. Even today bears etc can easily kill an armed person.

Just because their intelligence has increase doesn't necessarily mean they're weaponry would need to be better. OK, a spear may increase their striking range, but in the end a crocodile bite can be a hell of a lot worse.

I just want to know if natural abilities are still capable of "cutting it" in the tribal stage.

[Kris015]

Originally Posted by Willjam

Raggs i guess the weaponry is to grass eater creature so they can defent them self, and also try to image if our time warriors run over and bite someone it looks stupid the Tribe step is where the creature goes from animal to something more clever

Just because your creature is a Herbivore it can still be dangerous
And carnivore ("Meat Eaters") can also have weaponary...

[JohnConnor101]

Because of perks, its likely herbivores > Tribal will still opt for Social rather trhan military gameplay. The advantage spears have over bodily weaponry (except Spit) is that you can throw them.

Raggs is right about still-deadly creatures. My guide in Rajastan used to go boar-hunting with just a med.-low cal. handgun. He was nonchalant about it, but you have no idea how fast they run, how much damage they soak up, and they'll bite chunks straight out of you!

[Willjam]

I know but you can bite harder if you are Carnivore then a Herbivore

[Kris015]

Who said that? How about a Brontosaurus? It's a giant, but not a carnivore...

That mouth could also kill you in seconds....

[RedGiant]

The point is an interesting one. After all, one might view humanities creation of weapons a supplement for it's lack of natural defenses. Would a race of sentient creatures with crocodile jaws even find a need for crafting weapons? But I digress...

I would expect that the weaponry is stronger than natural attacks, purely because of gameplay practicality (Why even buy them if they weren't advantageous?).

[Raggs]

Then why bother spending so much on being able to attack in the creature stage, if it means that later you'll be drastically outgunned, seeing as you didn't bother so much with intelligence/socialising. You'll have setup an aggressive planet in the creature stage, and be probably least well equipped to deal with it in the tribal stage.

[TheAesthete]

Ummm you'd have intelligence as you need a set amount of intelligence to get into the tribal stage. And also you'll get the special powers fr4omt he creature stage that an aggressive player gets that you could then use in the tribal stage. Also your currency for buying tools becomes food rather than dna points so spending dna points on creature advances wont affect the amount of money you have to spend on tools.

[Raggs]

I was assuming (most probably mistakenly), that although you need a certain level of intelligence to get to the tribal stage, it's possible to have more intelligence than others. Obviously there will be an upper limit on DNA points available, and in theory if fewer are spent on parts, more go on intelligence. Greater intelligence, I suspect, would lead to better weapons?

I'm aware that buying tools costs food, but what about researching/gaining, will intelligence have an affect?

And regardless, I'd still rather see my vicious little blighters attacking with their teeth and claws, and doing so reasonably effectively. Sure spears as well, but it'll look far cooler if they still take advantage of their natural abilities. Afterall, just because everything is smarter, doesn't mean it's suddenly gained an immunity to teeth???

[Willjam]

Raggs you have to remember that this game is a game there tell you (in some freaky way) you on life historie, the way human (creature) goes from a beast to a man, how do you think humans starede with weapons and bows, no, they stated like your creature with they hands and then they found out that if you combinde a pen with a stik you have a more powerful weapon then you hands, image how fast a bear could kill a man, but with a spear he nearly were inviseble, and so are you creature

[Raggs]

Most people would get torn apart by a bear in seconds, armed by with a spear, gun or rocket launcher. Those well trained may succeed.

My creature is not some mainly herbivourous ape, with little natural aptitude for aggression. It will be capable of butting creatures stunning them for a long while, spitting poison over range, and biting hard enough that it would go through a human being.

A spear is good, but that doesn't mean a crocodiles bite is worthless by a long way.

[Mugge]

Originally Posted by Raggs

Most people would get torn apart by a bear in seconds, armed by with a spear, gun or rocket launcher. Those well trained may succeed.

My creature is not some mainly herbivourous ape, with little natural aptitude for aggression. It will be capable of butting creatures stunning them for a long while, spitting poison over range, and biting hard enough that it would go through a human being.

A spear is good, but that doesn't mean a crocodiles bite is worthless by a long way.

To some extend I agree and see your points, but still, having a spear keeps your own head and limbs out of reach of the enemy. Maybe it shouldn't give more damage than a mouth filled with sharp teeth, but being an intelligent creature you'd probably prefer a spear to keep your enemy away. And if the enemy also has a spear, then you need one yourself or you'll get speared before you can reach him.

[Raggs]

Spears can be avoided. One of the best techniques of beating a spearmen is to have a free hand (or even two). When he tries to stab you, you grab the spear. I've played with weapons (steel, full size, fast), and this is easily the best way of dealing with someone if you don't have a spear yourself. Or just move in fast. They can't move as fast backwards away from you, as you can move in to them.

Spears give range, which is a good thing, and by no means do I mean that they should be a bad thing. I think weapons such as these should boost striking ability. So perhaps a spear boosts it by 1 or 2, a sword by 3 perhaps. So that using a weapon, with hands that are already made to slash hard and fast, gives a bonus. Creatures that previously had no real attacking ability, shouldn't suddenly be equally as damaging simply because they have spears too. Basically I really don't want to see the natural abilities make an exit from the game, or for them to suddenly become more or less useless.

[JohnConnor101]

As said above, in 'Spore', spears are throwing weapons (javelins) and not melee weapons. These are the stone axes and spiked clubs disclosed on another thread. I don't think you need to be a particular 'tech level' to buy them, just have amassed sufficient food supplies. Certainly, intelligence is an issue only in the Creature phase - once you reach full sentience, you also reach Tribal and all tribes are assumed ro be equally intelligent, even if some may act more stupidly than others, unless they really are just animals left over from Creature to be hunted or domesticated. I also think you unlock perks in Tribal as a consequence of the number of rival tribes you've allied or conquered (thus, increased size of your own tribe, to a total of 20 and Civ unlock) rather than size of food dumps. Certainly, in Civ, perks unlock based on the number of cities you hold.

Are natural weapons better than manufactured ones? In Tribal, maybe, maybe not, but certainly not compared to the weaponry available in Civ (tanks, bombers, turrets, etc.), the natural progression from the handheld, personal armaments in Tribal. As said above by Willjam, this illustrates historical continuity and progression.

[Mugge]

Originally Posted by Raggs

Spears can be avoided. One of the best techniques of beating a spearmen is to have a free hand (or even two). When he tries to stab you, you grab the spear. I've played with weapons (steel, full size, fast), and this is easily the best way of dealing with someone if you don't have a spear yourself. Or just move in fast. They can't move as fast backwards away from you, as you can move in to them.

Spears give range, which is a good thing, and by no means do I mean that they should be a bad thing. I think weapons such as these should boost striking ability. So perhaps a spear boosts it by 1 or 2, a sword by 3 perhaps. So that using a weapon, with hands that are already made to slash hard and fast, gives a bonus. Creatures that previously had no real attacking ability, shouldn't suddenly be equally as damaging simply because they have spears too. Basically I really don't want to see the natural abilities make an exit from the game, or for them to suddenly become more or less useless.

I'd love to see the game being "intelligent" to a level where it could determine how a certain tribesman would fight using all of his abilities, but I'm more prone to think it'll be somewhat simplified and that previous stages mostly dictates which powers and style of play you have in the current stage. We'll see though.

On the spear tactics thing, spears are best used in numbers. Forming a wall of pointy sticks. With men behind the first line of spearmen, so if someone charges past the first line of spears, he gets speared from the next line. (think Asterix and the romans ) Spore probably won't be as tactical though

[Raggs]

Yeah, but you're thinking about humans. We're pretty pathetic. A spear is great for us, as is a club or an axe. But for giant mantis, an axe/club isn't really that much of an upgrade. A tyranosaur doesn't need to worry about a club that much, it'll just bite. An animal with massive clubs on it's tail, made for crushing opponents, isn't going to be improved that much by giving them clubs.

Yes, humans benefit from weaponry immensly, but if you gave a t rex a club, it's still going to have a massively damaging bite.

Yes the game represents continuity, but it does so from completely varied backgrounds, showing you the possibilities out there, not limiting them to the human route.

[Mugge]

Originally Posted by Raggs

Yeah, but you're thinking about humans. We're pretty pathetic. A spear is great for us, as is a club or an axe. But for giant mantis, an axe/club isn't really that much of an upgrade. A tyranosaur doesn't need to worry about a club that much, it'll just bite. An animal with massive clubs on it's tail, made for crushing opponents, isn't going to be improved that much by giving them clubs.

Yes, humans benefit from weaponry immensly, but if you gave a t rex a club, it's still going to have a massively damaging bite.

One of the reasons that humans have evolved to be more intelligent than other creatures is because we had to use our brains to survive. Other animals are successful because of their anatomy and not their brain and would never in billions of years change, if they didn't need to. So the success of, say, the crocodile, which has been around for longer than most other species means it hasn't evolved and would never reach sentience.

Yes the game represents continuity, but it does so from completely varied backgrounds, showing you the possibilities out there, not limiting them to the human route.

But the game is still locked to our history. The stages represent our route. It would be hard to make a game that truly made everything possible.

[Willjam]

Mugge is right if we hadnt used our head we maybe were exstint now and so are you if you dont use weapons and by the way you can use a t-rex as a agument, becouse it is so big and as i guess you have seen there is allways a bigger creature then you in the game and then that come you and your tribe mates must time up, grab you spears and kill that thing before it kill you

[orifice]

Originally Posted by Raggs

Spears can be avoided. One of the best techniques of beating a spearmen is to have a free hand (or even two). When he tries to stab you, you grab the spear. I've played with weapons (steel, full size, fast), and this is easily the best way of dealing with someone if you don't have a spear yourself. Or just move in fast. They can't move as fast backwards away from you, as you can move in to them.

Are you a battle re-enactor?

[TheAesthete]

ummm we don't know for sure that your natural fighting abilites as a creature wont just be enhanced by weapons. you seem to be fighting against something that we dont know at the moment and i'm rather confused by it.
Your stats as a creature will most likely be transfered across. your hit points are so maybe your attacking stats will be 2.
And as for "taking a human route" at the moment you've only provided one varient to that route that is actually very minor. So maybe you are just as constrained as the rest of us because we have no data of a species evolving as far as humans have other than us. It seems to me you are just moaning before the game has actually come out, and i think you should just wait for it to arrive then judge it once you play it.

[Raggs]

Used to be, haven't done it for a while, I've dabbled (spent a year or so, longer for some things), doing a lot of things, jitsu, judo, kung fu, reenactment, boxing etc etc. Doing this sort of thing makes you realise the limitation weapons can have, and also the limitations the human body can have.

As for there being bigger things than t-rex's there may be, but whilst the t-rexs mouth does more damage than a club, it makes more sense to bite the thing.

Just because we are the only apparent sapient creature at the moment doesn't mean others have been as worthless. Judging from levels of sophistication in apes, and a few others, there's a good chance that those same levels of intelligence were reached by the dinosaurs, they were around a lot longer than we were. Predators tend to be more intelligent than pure herbivores. Humans are around 5 times weaker than chimps. We aren't as strong, because we don't need to be. However, there's no reason to think that perhaps ancient creatures had very effective claws, able to rip things apart. Tools could still be developed for other reasons, but there'd be less need for claws.

I mean hell, even humans, when well trained, could give an armed opponent a run for their money, imagine a species that still had effective claws, thicker bones, more power? A club would improve things yes, but by no means render natural abilities obsolete.

EDIT - I'm not arguing against things that I don't know about in the game, I'm arguing against points being made by people suggesting weapons make natural abilities obsolete. My original question is a valid one, and apparently one that people don't know the answer to, that's fine, so now we're having a conversation.

[TheAesthete]

It is very unlikely that any of the dinosaur species reached the same intelligence as any animal in the great apes family. This is mainly due to brain size (and while brian size doesnt determine everything, their is a strong corralation between size and intellegence(we're talking about big differences in size not small ones)), dinosaurs had very small brains, exceptionally small when you consider the size of some. They are far more likely to have the intelligence of birds, (think penguins).

[Willjam]

Agian you use a T-rex lets try with something you really can fight against hmm...ahh a wolf or a bear, if you fight with one of these you are going to die but if you use a weapon you will win, and remember the bigger they are the heavyer they will fall hehe by that i mean if you put a t-rex against a small or tiny creature they will maybe be a chance for it to win becouse it is so small and fast and the t-rex is to big