Religion, would we be better off without it?

[Maus652]

We have a regular american evangelist preacher in Cambridge.

He's cool. In a stamp-on-your-argument-kind of way.


Dunno why he bothers, since according to him, man will always go to hell.

[Roo]

Originally Posted by SchnoodlePlayer

Look at what you're saying.

"Put up with some freak"
Yeah, because the way you're talking is much better. And how exactly is a priest abusing "our kids"?

If you don't want to be preached at, don't go to a church. How often do you really see people preaching in the streets? And how difficult is it to ignore them? Not hard.

Oh, and @ Glorious - If people find comfort in thanking god, then that's their choice.

You're practically preaching that you CAN'T believe in a god. That's just as bad as the other way around y'know.

Believe in what you wish, but just don't threaten me with hell & damnation if I don't subscribe to your beliefs

[Scarffo]

Of course, but at least we wouldn't have to put up with some freak in a dog collar abusing our kids whilst preaching the holy lalalala out of us.

Who voted "No"? I want to slap you. Hard.

Not every priest is a paedophile.

There's no point in being sterotypical. If you don't want to be religious, ignore churches and the such.

[SchnoodlePlayer]

Originally Posted by Roo

Believe in what you wish, but just don't threaten me with hell & damnation if I don't subscribe to your beliefs

I'm not religious, actually.

[Glorious90]

Originally Posted by SchnoodlePlayer

Look at what you're saying.

"Put up with some freak"
Yeah, because the way you're talking is much better. And how exactly is a priest abusing "our kids"?

If you don't want to be preached at, don't go to a church. How often do you really see people preaching in the streets? And how difficult is it to ignore them? Not hard.

Oh, and @ Glorious - If people find comfort in thanking god, then that's their choice.

You're practically preaching that you CAN'T believe in a god. That's just as bad as the other way around y'know.

How am I preaching that? I just said that I think religion is fantasy. Never said people should not, or can not believe in it. Just said that I don't understand people that do. And I said that people should believe in themselves, and thank their own, or others abilities rather than some mighty power.

[Roo]

Originally Posted by Scarffo

Not every priest is a pedophile.

There's no point in being sterotypical. If you don't want to be religious, ignore churches and the such.

Could you have said that 100 years ago

[Scarffo]

No.

I wasn't here 100 years ago to say it.

[Roo]

Originally Posted by Scarffo

No.

I wasn't here 100 years ago to say it.

No [Removed by Adroit - evading the swear filter]. My point obviously eluded you.

[SchnoodlePlayer]

Originally Posted by Glorious90

How am I preaching that? I just said that I think religion is fantasy. Never said people should not, or can not believe in it. Just said that I don't understand people that do. And I said that people should believe in themselves, and thank their own, or others abilities rather than some mighty power.

You are. You're saying people shouldn't believe in some "mighty power".

If that's what people want to do, then leave them to it. I'm not even religious, but it does annoy me when people say what you should or shouldn't believe in. Everyone has a right to believe in a God if they wish.

[Scarffo]

It must have..

[Roo]

Originally Posted by SchnoodlePlayer

You are. You're saying people shouldn't believe in some "mighty power".

If that's what people want to do, then leave them to it. I'm not even religious, but it does annoy me when people say what you should or shouldn't believe in. Everyone has a right to believe in a God if they wish.

Not quite as simple as that though is it?

These "believers" then begin to think that their "beliefs" are superior to someone else's beliefs & hence try to dominate/kill/convert them. Crusades anyone

Wow, this thread is going to be huge - assuming we all behave & don't get it locked

[Glorious90]

Originally Posted by SchnoodlePlayer

You are. You're saying people shouldn't believe in some "mighty power".

If that's what people want to do, then leave them to it. I'm not even religious, but it does annoy me when people say what you should or shouldn't believe in. Everyone has a right to believe in a God if they wish.

I am not saying they should NOT believe in God, I am saying that I think they should RATHER praise themselves than God when they are the ones deserving the praise.

[ZonalFear]

Originally Posted by Roo

Wow, this thread is going to be huge - assuming we all behave & don't get it locked

That's the important bit. Just because someone does/ doesn't believe, it doesn't give someone right to judge others.

I can't say I'm very religious, but I was baptised and went to church every week up until about 13 years of age, and after still went on a regular basis for a couple of years after. It's nice to think theres someone out there watching over us, even if he isn't.

I have a wife who isn't religious at all, and I'd never force religion upon her. It's entirely her choice, and I respect that. Same goes for my daughter. It frustrates me when religion is forced upon someone who doesn't want to believe in it. It should always be a choice.

[Roo]

Originally Posted by ZonalFear

That's the important bit. Just because someone does/ doesn't believe, it doesn't give someone right to judge others.

I can't say I'm very religious, but I was baptised and went to church every week up until about 13 years of age, and after still went on a regular basis for a couple of years after. It's nice to think theres someone out there watching over us, even if he isn't.

I have a wife who isn't religious at all, and I'd never force religion upon her. It's entirely her choice, and I respect that. Same goes for my daughter. It frustrates me when religion is forced upon someone who doesn't want to believe in it. It should always be a choice.

Sadly ZonalFear, not everyone is as balanced & tolerant as you appear to be

Good points & well made. Thankyou

EDIT

I want to add...

From the age of 9 I went to boarding school in Norfolk. We were forced to attend church every Sunday. The Vicar was many years later convicted of serious child abuse & is now serving a lengthy jail term. We all knew it was happening & I think that has had a major impact on my beliefs & hatred of religion. It's ironic me saying "we should all behave" when in reality, it's probably me who will say something stupid. I just rage when I see threads like this.

I will attempt to follow your lead however.

[MizVoldemort]

Originally Posted by Roo

Not quite as simple as that though is it?

These "believers" then begin to think that their "beliefs" are superior to someone else's beliefs & hence try to dominate/kill/convert them. Crusades anyone

Steotypical much?

Most religious people I know are perfectly fine with other people's beliefs. We have discussions about beliefs, but there's a huge difference in saying 'I do/do not believe in god, because [sensible reason]', which is what most people are happy to talk like, and 'God does/doesn't exist, and you're all idiots for believing otherwise'.

The issue with the crusades really does lack historical validity. One hundred years ago, things were different. Science had only just become an everyday sort of thing, and there was nothing else to explain why the world was the way it was. There was also the issue with the social side of it. It was a lot more difficult to travel, particularly in rural areas, and there was a lot more of putting up with the community. Religion was a very good way of getting the community together than by going to church, and finding out how farmer soandso's new lambs were doing, etc, etc.


You can't judge today on the basis of 100 or more years ago.



The whole issue with the people you describe in your post is that, in the UK at least, they are in the minority. It's a few that give the majority a bad name. Atheists are exactly the same.

[Lauren]

Some religions but not all of them.

All religions have an equal amount of good and bad sides. A good point of religion would be, it gives people hope, a bad side would be, sometimes it makes people do stupid things.

[Roo]

I can't recall any instances of aethiests going to war in the name of errr, lack of religion

[Lauren]

Yes but some Athiests cause Flame Wars.

[Roo]

Originally Posted by Lauren

Yes but some Athiests cause Flame Wars.

Nobody dies in "flame wars" dear

[MizVoldemort]

Originally Posted by Roo

I can't recall any instances of aethiests going to war in the name of errr, lack of religion

That's because the time in which atheism is more widely accepted is very short. Even now, I have friends who are hiding the fact that they are atheists from their parents until they're older and so will be able to have a sensible conversation with their parents about it. Again, one hundred years ago it was very different, and there were a lot fewer atheists around, or a lot fewer open atheists at least.

That and the fact that by their nature, atheists tend to be... I'm not sure how to put this. More independant. In a lot of cases, they don't have to have the whole community thing going on. They don't follow the crowd, or need the social stability that religion can bring.

It's difficult for a single person to go to war. Generally before one commits to something they need to have people behind them (or they're just stupid). It's why it's a lot harder to stand up to someone on your own than if you have friends surrounding you.



That's starting to change now. If you go on facebook and find the religious based groups, or youtube and find videos, you can see that it gets quite vicious on both sides. Personally, I think it's due to the the fact that you're anonymous and that you're part of a large group.

If you look up Zimbardo's theory of aggression as a result from deindividuation you'll find that various studies suggest that deindividuation is a result of being in a large group, and being pretty much a nobody within that group - there's no self awareness to mediate your actions. Football riots are good examples of this in modern society.

[Roo]

Originally Posted by MizVoldemort

That's because the time in which atheism is more widely accepted is very short. Even now, I have friends who are hiding the fact that they are atheists from their parents until they're older and so will be able to have a sensible conversation with their parents about it. Again, one hundred years ago it was very different, and there were a lot fewer atheists around, or a lot fewer open atheists at least.

That and the fact that by their nature, atheists tend to be... I'm not sure how to put this. More independant. In a lot of cases, they don't have to have the whole community thing going on. They don't follow the crowd, or need the social stability that religion can bring.

It's difficult for a single person to go to war. Generally before one commits to something they need to have people behind them (or they're just stupid). It's why it's a lot harder to stand up to someone on your own than if you have friends surrounding you.



That's starting to change now. If you go on facebook and find the religious based groups, or youtube and find videos, you can see that it gets quite vicious on both sides. Personally, I think it's due to the the fact that you're anonymous and that you're part of a large group.

If you look up Zimbardo's theory of aggression as a result from deindividuation you'll find that various studies suggest that deindividuation is a result of being in a large group, and being pretty much a nobody within that group - there's no self awareness to mediate your actions. Football riots are good examples of this in modern society.

So will I go to hell when I die or is God forgiving enough to allow me my own opinion

[Lauren]

Well no. You'll go where you believe you'll go. If you were Christian and you were a good person, you'd go to heaven, bad person hell. If you were Buddhist and a good person, you'd get reincarnated as something good or go to Nirvana, bad person, you'd get reincarnated as something bad

[Glorious90]

Originally Posted by Roo

So will I go to hell when I die or is God forgiving enough to allow me my own opinion

I think it is cool how hypocritical religions are. Like here in Norway, christianity is the main religion, and christianity as all other religions claims that all men are created equal and should be treated as such. But then they say lalalalafilia is a sin, and *** marriage is not allowed. In Norway, *** marriage isnt allowed, contradicting one of the main points of christianity. We just recently got our first *** priest tho, which is a huge step in the right direction.

Oh, and the word g4y is obviously not allowed on these forums. Proves my point, it is not necessarily a bad word.

[MizVoldemort]

Originally Posted by Roo

So will I go to hell when I die or is God forgiving enough to allow me my own opinion

I'm not saying you're opinion is wrong, I'm just making a sensible argument against some points you made.

If I see something that I think has flawed thinking, I will say so, and give good reasons why. In my experience, it makes people think, which is always a good thing. You're welcome to keep your own opinion, or reply with why you think my thinking's flawed.


Again, there is a huge difference in stating what you believe (even if it counters someone elses belief) and why, and saying that this is what you believe, this is right, and you're a fool for thinking anything else. I've been doing the former (and I hope it came across that way).

You gave your opinion, I gave my opinion, you gave yours, I gave mine. It's called debate, and I happen to like doing it.



So, have you actually got anything to say about what I said?


(and I don't believe in hell or god, so I'm not really in the know about what he does to people with opinions )

[Roo]

Originally Posted by MizVoldemort

I'm not saying you're opinion is wrong, I'm just making a sensible argument against some points you made.

If I see something that I think has flawed thinking, I will say so, and give good reasons why. In my experience, it makes people think, which is always a good thing. You're welcome to keep your own opinion, or reply with why you think my thinking's flawed.


Again, there is a huge difference in stating what you believe (even if it counters someone elses belief) and why, and saying that this is what you believe, this is right, and you're a fool for thinking anything else. I've been doing the former (and I hope it came across that way).

You gave your opinion, I gave my opinion, you gave yours, I gave mine. It's called debate, and I happen to like doing it.



So, have you actually got anything to say about what I said?


(and I don't believe in hell or god, so I'm not really in the know about what he does to people with opinions )

yes, I don't agree