Why the pressure buttons must go - Why they mar a great game

[Xaor]

This is meant as a second part to a trilogy of threads based on core problems in FIFA. The third will address a wider range of issues, whereas the previous two are quite specific. The first in the series. The first, of course, was this still continuing ball of anger known as:

Why the assists must go - why they mar a great game

This topic is on an issue which should hopefully be less controversial (it's not so much about choice) but nonetheless at least as significant. This is hardly a new comment - a lot of people have said this and will continue to say it: the pressure buttons are a huge problem. It's obvious why - in our fast-food generation we want more for less, we want to put in tiny effort to get out far too much - which is why in this game defending can be done in an almost automated lackadaisical way - as soon as a player receives a ball - especially if it's in the air - hold down A, or B, charge into them, somehow get the ball as they foolishly bumble around trying to control it.

The response most people use, unsurprisingly, is to pass, and to pass, and to pass, which leads to a huge propagation of the ping-pong-passing tactic so lamented on this forum. So, this single problem, the pressure, has a massive effect on the balance of the game.

I have the fortune of being privy to a better-than-the-norm sample of people to play against. I play on manual and thus use the manual filter - and people who do use the manual filter tend to be of a mentality which does allow proper football to be played. Football where we're not seeing 100s of tackles being put in within 12 minutes. It is on these occasions which you can see what a wonderful game FIFA can be. Balanced, tactical, beautiful.. but unfortunately for me, and everyone else not everybody on manual plays this way. A lot do - thank God - but it's incredible the change when you play against someone who does. Suddenly you have no time on the ball - every time you try to run past a player you'll get massacred off the ball unless you are using a strong player - they will make ridiculous tackles. You pass the ball remotely long, and you will lose it every time as a robot player speeds into do some kind of matrix trapping whilst your player stands their admiring the 3D grass.

The game becomes choppy, scrappy, and horrible. You have to play fast, and you have to be opportunistic. Worst of all is when their strikers pressure your defenders. One small piece of bad luck (or a pseudo glitch) where your defender for whatever reason controls it badly, and slam, a steroidal Imbrahimovic slams into your defender whilst the other defenders scoff and laugh whilst the striker paces into a 1 on 1.

Don't get me wrong. Pressure does exist in football, and pressure should continue to exist in FIFA.. but it needs to be dramatically rebalanced. Pressure in football is usually applied to .. pressure a player. Not to tackle him, but to pressure him. To make him make a mistake. To close down his options... in FIFA... pressure is used primarily, and secondarily to tackle, to tackle, to tackle. Of course, you'd think that if a player was constantly accelerating to charge to a player every three seconds, he'd be half dead and useless quite quickly. Not in FIFA. In FIFA, fatigue still remains a small, semi irrelevant part of the game. I occasionally make substitutions when my winger's (poor old Arshavin and Rosicky - I'm a gunner) energy bars start to decrease but I'll only bother with this in extra time. I only do it to entertain myself - I've never noticed it making a remote difference.

The problem is fundamentally that tackling is far, far too prominent in this game. Tackling is actually NOT the bread and butter reason for a turnover of possession in football. Interceptions and misplaced passes are just as much. In this game, you can often see 40 tackles apiece in a 12 minute game. How ridiculous.

The automation is part of the problem. I see a lot of quite effective players who I swear don't even know what the left trigger DOES in defence - even though it really should be your primary defensive button. I bet a lot of them don't know your player actually tackles without you pressing A, and B, either. In fact, I'd say that the game is just as realistic whether you use the A/B (X/O) buttons or not. Even if you didn't use them at all - you'd be playing an as realistic, if not more realistic game than what FIFA 10 is if you use them. The game would be far better off if A (X) was changed to be the make-a-tackle button - and not have it run towards the player at all. I swear that's how it used to be in FIFA.. you know, when it was supposedly unrealistic (and defending actually was... kinda more realistic?!).

The attacking in this game has it's problems - partially because of the assists - partially because of the pressure - and a lot because of a whole array of other stuff... but the defence in this game is terrifically bad.

It's not that it's ineffective - it's that it's ineffective where it should be effective and effective where it should be ineffective. Tackling needs to be toned down. Interceptions, and blocking, perhaps needs to take a slight upping. Mainly, some real ability to cover a man needs to be introduced... At the core of this issue is the pressure - and this is my way of showing what I feel about this.

[IduoSports]

Agreed and well said.

[Nayos]

Definitely.
There does need to be some change.
At the moment when I play offline against the AI, I always the jockey (and variations of) button to stop the paths and runs until I'm in a position where I can actually stick a foot in or they just mess up and give me the ball (missed shot, bad cross, intercepted pass). I rarely, if ever, hold sprint and pressure and hope to the win ball.

However, I find when playing against human opponents (online or offline), that trying to defending in a realistic manner (the jockeying approach) isn't very effective. So, I find myself hitting that A button and surprise, surprise, I have the ball back at my feet. I feel cheap, but I also feel that if I didn't do it, then I'd only lose as they'd be doing it to me.

So, I agree. A total re-think of how the pressure button works needs to be made with more of an emphasis on jockeying. However, I think the current movement while jockeying is a little restrictive. I frequently end up on the wrong side of players when I'm sure I'm pressing the correct direction to be moving to block their progress.

[GeoffHurst]

I think the only thing they really need to do in the game is make the energy/stamina bar more influential on a players overall stats and make it so that continued use of the pressure buttons drains the bar faster. So that by 60 minutes game time a player should be noticably exhausted and slow off the mark if his bar has run out. At the moment the penalty isn't enough to worry about it - so that's why people do it. Substitutions should be an extremaly important tactical element to online matches and this would ensure that is the case. One simple patch.

[bf2qwcx561]

yeah they turn the game into ping pong, at least make it if i turn my back on a defender he cant just run over me like a truck with no consequences.

[NeroMs]

Originally Posted by Xaor

This is meant as a second part to a trilogy of threads based on core problems in FIFA. The third will address a wider range of issues, whereas the previous two are quite specific. The first in the series. The first, of course, was this still continuing ball of anger known as:

Why the assists must go - why they mar a great game

This topic is on an issue which should hopefully be less controversial (it's not so much about choice) but nonetheless at least as significant. This is hardly a new comment - a lot of people have said this and will continue to say it: the pressure buttons are a huge problem. It's obvious why - in our fast-food generation we want more for less, we want to put in tiny effort to get out far too much - which is why in this game defending can be done in an almost automated lackadaisical way - as soon as a player receives a ball - especially if it's in the air - hold down A, or B, charge into them, somehow get the ball as they foolishly bumble around trying to control it.

The response most people use, unsurprisingly, is to pass, and to pass, and to pass, which leads to a huge propagation of the ping-pong-passing tactic so lamented on this forum. So, this single problem, the pressure, has a massive effect on the balance of the game.

I have the fortune of being privy to a better-than-the-norm sample of people to play against. I play on manual and thus use the manual filter - and people who do use the manual filter tend to be of a mentality which does allow proper football to be played. Football where we're not seeing 100s of tackles being put in within 12 minutes. It is on these occasions which you can see what a wonderful game FIFA can be. Balanced, tactical, beautiful.. but unfortunately for me, and everyone else not everybody on manual plays this way. A lot do - thank God - but it's incredible the change when you play against someone who does. Suddenly you have no time on the ball - every time you try to run past a player you'll get massacred off the ball unless you are using a strong player - they will make ridiculous tackles. You pass the ball remotely long, and you will lose it every time as a robot player speeds into do some kind of matrix trapping whilst your player stands their admiring the 3D grass.

The game becomes choppy, scrappy, and horrible. You have to play fast, and you have to be opportunistic. Worst of all is when their strikers pressure your defenders. One small piece of bad luck (or a pseudo glitch) where your defender for whatever reason controls it badly, and slam, a steroidal Imbrahimovic slams into your defender whilst the other defenders scoff and laugh whilst the striker paces into a 1 on 1.

Don't get me wrong. Pressure does exist in football, and pressure should continue to exist in FIFA.. but it needs to be dramatically rebalanced. Pressure in football is usually applied to .. pressure a player. Not to tackle him, but to pressure him. To make him make a mistake. To close down his options... in FIFA... pressure is used primarily, and secondarily to tackle, to tackle, to tackle. Of course, you'd think that if a player was constantly accelerating to charge to a player every three seconds, he'd be half dead and useless quite quickly. Not in FIFA. In FIFA, fatigue still remains a small, semi irrelevant part of the game. I occasionally make substitutions when my winger's (poor old Arshavin and Rosicky - I'm a gunner) energy bars start to decrease but I'll only bother with this in extra time. I only do it to entertain myself - I've never noticed it making a remote difference.

The problem is fundamentally that tackling is far, far too prominent in this game. Tackling is actually NOT the bread and butter reason for a turnover of possession in football. Interceptions and misplaced passes are just as much. In this game, you can often see 40 tackles apiece in a 12 minute game. How ridiculous.

The automation is part of the problem. I see a lot of quite effective players who I swear don't even know what the left trigger DOES in defence - even though it really should be your primary defensive button. I bet a lot of them don't know your player actually tackles without you pressing A, and B, either. In fact, I'd say that the game is just as realistic whether you use the A/B (X/O) buttons or not. Even if you didn't use them at all - you'd be playing an as realistic, if not more realistic game than what FIFA 10 is if you use them. The game would be far better off if A (X) was changed to be the make-a-tackle button - and not have it run towards the player at all. I swear that's how it used to be in FIFA.. you know, when it was supposedly unrealistic (and defending actually was... kinda more realistic?!).

The attacking in this game has it's problems - partially because of the assists - partially because of the pressure - and a lot because of a whole array of other stuff... but the defence in this game is terrifically bad.

It's not that it's ineffective - it's that it's ineffective where it should be effective and effective where it should be ineffective. Tackling needs to be toned down. Interceptions, and blocking, perhaps needs to take a slight upping. Mainly, some real ability to cover a man needs to be introduced... At the core of this issue is the pressure - and this is my way of showing what I feel about this.

[kenny3101]

Agreed hope someone from EA reads your post,the game would be so much better if i was penalised with less energy/power for constantly rushing at the player with the ball.

[Dickr9]

"The attacking in this game has it's problems - partially because of the assists - partially because of the pressure - and a lot because of a whole array of other stuff... but the defence in this game is terrifically bad."

100% agreed.

The other thing that needs to be remade is the ball control at first touch...

[podrag]

Brilliant thread mate, one of the best I have read.

[Xaor]

Originally Posted by Nayos

Definitely.
There does need to be some change.
At the moment when I play offline against the AI, I always the jockey (and variations of) button to stop the paths and runs until I'm in a position where I can actually stick a foot in or they just mess up and give me the ball (missed shot, bad cross, intercepted pass). I rarely, if ever, hold sprint and pressure and hope to the win ball.

However, I find when playing against human opponents (online or offline), that trying to defending in a realistic manner (the jockeying approach) isn't very effective. So, I find myself hitting that A button and surprise, surprise, I have the ball back at my feet. I feel cheap, but I also feel that if I didn't do it, then I'd only lose as they'd be doing it to me.

Oh I know that feeling. It's one of the worst things. There are some exploitations, some problems which are avoidable. On Call of Duty, I don't use the M16A4 because I find it cheap... but you HAVE to use A and B regardless of what you do and then the question is when, and how much... so it really just brings up a fairly desperate feeling of cheapness on occasion.

[DefunctDvlfsh]

Well, maybe rebalanced yes, but I don't want the button to go, no way.

[Xaor]

Originally Posted by DefunctDvlfsh

Well, maybe rebalanced yes, but I don't want the button to go, no way.

Why?

Why do you need it to do it for you? Is it hard to use the left analog stick? I mean. If you defend in a realistic manner, you have to rely almost solely on the left analog stick.

[Jonx88]

Im waiting for a thread title of - Why the moaners must go - why they marr a great game

[Xaor]

Originally Posted by Jonx88

Im waiting for a thread title of - Why the moaners must go - why they marr a great game

I mar a game by talking about it?

[TheMainMan32]

I disagree with Part 1. But this is 100% spot on - well said.

[Jonx88]

Originally Posted by Xaor

I mar a game by talking about it?

Your not talking your complaining....about pretty much every little detail, i mean a trilogy come on m8, why not balance it out a bit and start talking about the parts of the game you actually do like, you will feel better

To respond to your ideas you dont really come up with a solution here, how do you propose interceptions and blocking take a 'slight upping'?, this is to do with the way you position the player yourself so how can that be programmed?, bearing in mind your main gripes are to do with the already automated parts of the game.

[Emanuel83]

I agree! great post. FIFA 10 is so unrealistic because of that. High Pressure High defence let´s go Real Madrid/barcelona, don´t let them move. This is not rugby, it´s football. That´s why I´m buying PES 2010 22 October. Sick of ping pong.

[AceAvenger]

Yes!!

Yes to it all!!

If they rework this, making it so that the more momentum a player has from rushing the worse the tackle it, and that if you hold pressure, you player will not wait til the ball come closer, but barge ball carrier head on, and fouls him, and he might even get a yellow card for it, that game will be so much better...

[AceAvenger]

Originally Posted by Jonx88

Im waiting for a thread title of - Why the moaners must go - why they marr a great game

It's called constructive criticism..

It's a good thing.

I found that Xaor's last thread was a bit over the top, people should be still allowed to use assisted, but this thread hit the nail on the head.

[Kirby_Cares]

Bravo to the OP.


This game is far too pressure-centric. particularly online.

I just played a game Celtic vs Rangers and lost 5-0. This came after a 7 game winning streak (yet mysetriously my 5 ranked head to head achievement didn't unlock...for the third time).

I felt like I had no time to think nevermind shield/pass/manoevre. As soon as I passed to a teammate, the other guys were all over me. I felt like I was destined to lose the ball before I even received it every time.

The guy messaged me after and turns out he was playing with a guest which probably made it extra pressurised.

Annoying.

I feel this is the single most flawed aspect of FIFA 10 personally.

[Jonx88]

Originally Posted by AceAvenger

It's called constructive criticism..

It's a good thing.

I found that Xaor's last thread was a bit over the top, people should be still allowed to use assisted, but this thread hit the nail on the head.

I know im just a bit jaded from reading so many negative posts on here! lol

I think to be constructive tho we have to come up with a better way for it to work, to respond to your suggestion ace i dont think you can make it so that if you have a lot of momentum that means you can't make a good tackle, try and imagine that actually in the game it would be very unrealistic as the opposite is true in real life, maybe if your running really fast into a tackle it could be slightly less accurate and more chance of missing the ball and getting a foul against you?

[Strange Pirate]

Totally agree.

[AceAvenger]

Originally Posted by Jonx88

I know im just a bit jaded from reading so many negative posts on here! lol

So am I mate..

I think to be constructive tho we have to come up with a better way for it to work, to respond to your suggestion ace i dont think you can make it so that if you have a lot of momentum that means you can't make a good tackle, try and imagine that actually in the game it would be very unrealistic as the opposite is true in real life, maybe if your running really fast into a tackle it could be slightly less accurate and more chance of missing the ball and getting a foul against you?

This is what I meant, it's just that I was using Foxfire, long story why, and I was lalalalaed that it isn't as efficient as Google Chrome, so my frustration hindered my ability to get my point across.

[T-Mills-85]

Originally Posted by AceAvenger

I was using Foxfire, long story why, and I was lalalalaed that it isn't as efficient as Google Chrome

lets not turn this into a browser war

Excellent points Xaor.

[Xaor]

Originally Posted by Jonx88

Your not talking your complaining....about pretty much every little detail, i mean a trilogy come on m8, why not balance it out a bit and start talking about the parts of the game you actually do like, you will feel better

I've talked about what I like in this game plenty. These three threads are about the problems. If you can't take too much negative in one thread, then you should leave. Complaining is not illegal, nor wrong... it's a perfectly valid thing to do.

To respond to your ideas you dont really come up with a solution here, how do you propose interceptions and blocking take a 'slight upping'?, this is to do with the way you position the player yourself so how can that be programmed?, bearing in mind your main gripes are to do with the already automated parts of the game.

Covering a man needs to be easier - and interceptions need to be still more prominent. They are still too rare in this game. The defensive AI needs to cover plays better, and mould their body to cover more space when you aren't controlling them as well as when you are.

The automation in the game needs to be there in some places - like auto clearances. They aren't perfect but they are necessary because sometimes you can't be asked to think that fast or see quite well enough to assess what needs to be done.

Automation should be done when extremely quick thinking is necessary - or when a vast array of animations are necessary. Interceptions, blocking are this type of thing. When you can't possibly be asked to achieve it.

The pressure buttons don't tackle for you - the game tackles automatically. The pressure buttons position you to tackle. I know that the game actually plays really pretty well if you swear off the A/B (X/O) buttons entirely whilst defending - because I've done it with friends. You can still tackle - as I said, the game tackles automatically when you are next to a player. Tackling is more reasonable - play more open. It's not perfect by any means - but it's actually closer to being right which is extraordinarily dumb considering the game is intended to be played with the pressure buttons.

I don't want the other one of them to go, the AI pressure button which gets one your teammates pressuring. (You were talking about that button too right?) I don't actually use the tackle button on the player I control. I use the analog stick only, and also the LT button a lot.

I like to have my AI teammate helping me out cornering an opponent player. It is a very useful button near the sidelines and cornerflags.

For example, when playing an NHL game after playing lots of FIFA, I'm extremely lalalalaed at the fact that I can't get my AI teammates to come out and help me in tough situations. It feels very "lonely", I'd say.

Bravo I agree that the secondary defender button needs to stay, in some form, but it does have slightly the same issue of being the automated robotic genius-player. So, I'd probably CHANGE the secondary-pressure button to being something which would -actually- pressure, but probably not go right in for the tackle. Ideally I'd have it move in close, and cover, and pressure - but not go in for the tackle. If you want to tackle I think, most of the time the player should be controlling it.

But this is what we have to discuss. I'm talking about the problem a lot more than the solution - I know that. Of course, maybe the custom-tactics could be raised to be more capable of handling this stuff. So, the tactics could dictate whether the non-player controlled players will go in for a tackle (they do this already).

For me, what I'd like to move towards would be a situation where the pressure buttons were removed to allow for more control over your team. A button for offside trap (the system at the moment - at least on the 360's terrible D-PAD) is horrendous. A button for apply pressure. A button for mark the far post. Things like that - tactical stuff. This is sort of already there (offside trap and pressure) but they are hidden, probably mostly unused, and kind of unusable because of they way they are implemented.

I'd like to have a LOT of control over the defenders I'm not specifically controlling.

I can see your point that it is abused online or something like that? I have to say, I don't play online at all, well maybe 1% every now and then.

You might have to try playing online to understand what a lot of us are on about to be honest