Things that FIFA can learn from PES!

[bluchampblogger]

Yet another long post from me. People who hate long posts, please look away. Having played both FIFA 09 and PES 2009, I'm now able to make a good comparison on both games. While both EA and Konami have things to learn from each other, I've mentioned below those things that FIFA can learn from PES.

It was all going fine with FIFA 09. I loved the game. I tweaked the game some more and it played like a charm. Then slowly, I started to feel that the charm of FIFA 09 was wearing off. I started to feel that the games are becoming more and more routine, no matter which teams I match up. I quit online FIFA 09 gaming long back. All the tweaks and edits helps the game a bit but does not do anything for the inherent weaknesses and blunders. I was advised to play manual controls which I did for a few weeks but still it did not quite please me.

I thought there was something wrong with the game and that thing was so hard coded that it could not be improved by smart ideas from users or what's already in the game. That's when I picked up Euro 2008 again. That was so much better and than FIFA 09. Playing as nations did not keep me interested for too long. Then I thought, let me give another chance to PES. I remembered how lalalala PES2008 was, but still went and bought PES2009.

As soon as I booted up PES 2009, five thinglalalala me. One - the pitch graphics is just amazing. Two - the pitch is so big. Three - the gameplay has been slowed down to perfect speed. Four - anything works as long as you play well. Five - the games can be completely random. The pitch graphics is the best I've seen in a football game. I have a 40" HDTV and FIFA 09 pitches don't look this good. In all the stadiums, you can play afternoon kick-offs as well which are the best. The night matches are such a beauty unlike the dark corridors in FIFA 09. Ah, how I love the pitch being so big. The size of the pitch gives a new dimension to the game. There is so much space to keep the ball, dribble the ball, draw defenders and create openings etc. It feels like real football.

PES 2009 has been slowed down by a great extent. PES 2008 was in frantic pace. It was just crazy. In PES 2009, I think they have hit the sweet spot with respect to the speed. It is not slow as sluggish or fast as hell but it surely resembles the pace of real football than FIFA09. It is the unsophisticated animations that gives us a feeling that this game is fast. I'd say this game is as fast as the real life football. Real football is slow in general and shows some bursts of pace depending on the situations. That's very beautifully captured in PES 2009. Now I can truly control the pace of the game, at least when I have the ball. I can knock it around among my defenders and midfielders and can quickly use my pace if I see an opportunity, just like real football. In FIFA 09, you have less of time and space, which makes it very unrealistic.

The great thing about pro evo is that it allows you to play the game the way you want to. There are no beaten paths, no routine play or boring build-ups. This is what gives us the famous PES promise of 'you'll never score the same goal twice'. I'm not trying to say that FIFA 09 is scripted but it works in a framework. It does not allow you to play freely. Don't get me wrong. FIFA 09 is a great game and it is seen as a more complete offering than pro evo. In FIFA 09, I get this feeling that the game wants you to play in a certain way and forces you to play that way. See, I'm a good football gamer and a very normal one too. I don't do flip-flaps and all that. I just play my game, the game I normally see on TV every weekend. FIFA 09 does not allow us to beat defenders. It's not that uncommon in FIFA 09 as it is in real life. You don't need to do flip-flap or a 360 degree spin everytime you want to beat a defender. In PES 2009, you can beat the defenders with your normal dribble. And I love that.

But beating a defender with the dribble does not mean you get no challenge. The defenders can catch the attackers purely based on the speed and strength attributes, and direction and angle of the run. All other things being equal, a man without the ball can run faster than the man with the ball. But the difference should not be too much because there won't be any attacks and if the difference is less then you'll have too many break aways and one-on-ones. Pro evo has got this spot on. The speed advantage is neither for the attackers nor the defenders.

You can play the style of football you want to, provided the players you are suitable for it. You can play one-touch-short-passing game, you can play a long ball game, you attack through the wings, you can split through the centre, you can play slow build-up game, you can shoot on sight etc. Basically what Konami tell us is, here is the set of things you can do, come with a combination of these things and score the goal any which way you want. Whatever PES2009 allows us to do, it allows to do them very very well.

Take shooting for instance, you can shoot from distance as well as from difficult angles, depending on the player that you control. Take crossing, it is so sweet in this game. It is a real weapon. In FIFA09, crossing was kind of discouraged by the way the game plays. Crosses are always useless so you stop playing that kind of game. In FIFA09, it's unnaturally hard to cut back from the sides. In FIFA08, it was way too easy and probably hence, they made it so difficult in FIFA09. In PES 2009, you can cut-back beautifully.

If you can attack so effectively in all these ways, do we end up with huge scores such as 10-8 or something? No, certainly not. Because, the defence behaves very well. They know exactly what to do as defenders. They are very smart in staying in their positions and cut down spaces for you to exploit. They also pre-empt your possible next pass and attack the passing lanes which you keep you guessing and provoke you to be innovative on the pitch. The defenders don't walk around disinterested. They play as if they certainly don't want to concede. In FIFA09, defenders were a big problem. They were made a bit ineffective so that you can score goals. The played up all the time and even with all the tweaks and tactics, it's hard to keep them deep. It's not the playing up that was a problem. It's their lack of pace while staying so up that made it all too easy for the attackers.

Basically, in FIFA09, the players who are not controlled by you, had only half brain. Which is why the defenders were not smart in moving to their positions and cutting the spaces. Similarly, you'll have attackers who don't make smart runs while you have the ball. Basically, the AI of your team mates lacked game intelligence. The FIFA players are not very dynamic. They are in fact, lazy and lethargic. This is the reason why the FIFA games do not produce the excitement of Pro Evo.

To be honest, I have really really enjoyed FIFA 09 but what I realise now is that it lacks longevity. The fact that FIFA has all the licenses make you play as various teams which will give you a feeling that you're experiencing variety in gameplay. If you play team A vs team B about 10 times continuously, you'll see that the games will pan out in a very very similar fashion. In comparison, PES 2009 plays a much more random game.

In contrast, the PES players are much better. They do close spaces in time and they do make intelligent attacking runs. I read somewhere that the AI off the ball player in FIFA does not make diagonal runs. All that it can do is to run in a straight line. The PES AI players run diagonally as well which creates a truckload more of possible attacking moves. In FIFA, the players that you don't control do not decide or act on your behalf. All that they do is run and not stand still. Only when you take control of them, they come alive. Whereas in PES, even the players that you don't control do think and act on their own.

I've heard quite a bit about people complaining about their team mate AI that gets sent off. That's because AI thinks on its own and it could be an aggressive player. You can easily resolve this problem by selecting the player that's closest to the ball carrier. So now you're the one who's is in a position to make a tackle or get sent off. It's your decision then.

I also love the fact that you can even play the long ball game. They can sometimes be very effective. You can time your jump and win the ball and can truly make it very effective if you have the kind of players that would take advantage of the situation. The other thing I like in PES 09 is that the set pieces can be very useful. If I get a foul outside the D, I don't have worry about the interruption of my attack. I can make that free kick really count. You have a variety of ways to deliver the free kick and they can be good fun. Quick freekicks are also implemented very nicely.

I get a feeling that this is the best football game ever. They seem to have fixed exactly those things which were the pain points of PES 2008. That's all they had to do. At the core of PES, you have a great football game. You may not garnilalalala with decoratives but you can certainly avoid making a mess of it with your extra efforts. PES 2009 is no way complete. It is lacking animations big time. Very limited number of animations mean jerky looking movements and arcadish looking game.

Despite all this, for me the FIFA 09 vs PES 2009 is over. PES 2009 is the clear winner by a country mile. The race is not as close as the reviewers are making it out to be. It would take some groundbreaking efforts in gameplay for FIFA to reach the gameplay levels of PES. Konami have understood the beautiful game lot better than EA. That's why PES 2009 is much more realistic and resembles real football than FIFA 09.

[Cheeky Hobbit]

Having played both games, I have to say, theres quite a lot to be said about both games, both good and bad.

To be honest, I don't PES2009 has a good feel to any stadium. Sure they get it right with the design, but how the crowd reacts to a goal kick, or just the crowd sounds any way for that matter. In FIFA, stadiums like Anfield or Stamford Bridge are hectic, and quite loud, as well jam packed with scarfs and pride.

Yeah, I know it seems like I'm bashing PES but it still has hope in the future. If you look past some of the flaws, theres actually a good footy game to be played. The animations can use some work, the way they dribble is a bit annoying and mechanical. And goal keepers should defiantly use some work.

I also like the Champions League feature as well. Licsened teams aren't a big deal, and the edit feature is awesome. Maybe get some different commentators or offer it in other languages, Norwegian, Russian maybe.

I know this probably sounds bad, its late at night here, maybe tomorrow I'll put a new post up with better opinions.

[RawwrrFIFA10]

wow [removed] some summarise the lalalala

[bluchampblogger]

Grow up kid. Hope you read the first line. I'm absolutely if you don't read the post. Cheers.

[S0TV]

If PES had the licence for official kits, stadiums etc then it would be most peoples favourite football game.

All these Fifa lovers dislike PES purely because it doesn't have all the official kits.

[sixtoo]

I'm sure if both camps came together and made a footie game it would be nearly perfect, but that will never happen.

Nice article though, now it's up to EA to consider some of these suggestions!

[JC83]

That post makes a lot of sense, but I don't think it need be SO long lol.

IMO the AI is one of two departments that PES betters FIFA (the other being player stats), something to do with the fact that they haven't changed their engine and that the AI actually learns and adapts to how you play the game.

I wouldn't say PES' dribbling system is any better though, I understand that being able to take a player on can be difficult in FIFA but it's way too easy in PES, grab a decent dribbler and you can just run through loads of players. I think FIFA's dribbling system needs a lot of work, but it looks and feels a lot more realistic IMO, it is possible to take players on without the trick stick it just takes a bit of practice is all.

You've played FIFA 09 since release date, now you've played PES for what.... a couple of weeks? You've just become accustomed to how FIFA plays, give the same amount of time to PES and you won't feel half as strongly about it.

That said I'm a PES convert and if they bring the game up to date (at the moment it just looks like an HD version of the PS2 games) as in animations need a lot of work etc then I will probably be getting both.

[Kuled]

keep it short.

[KyleG22]

Fifa owns PES

[DerSchatz]

m8, imo, the attack in FIFA is ments...yeas, the defense lacks alot, but i've never conceded OR scored more than 3 goals in online....that's not because i'm bad or anything, it's cos i play it like the real game plays....not pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-ow!PASS-shoot type of game... i make long passes, dribbles, some tricks, traps, runs, thru balls an all....but u agree, that EA could step up a bit in it, to make it even MORE realistic.


100% agree bout the gameplay speed

[Eamer]

No chance am I reading all that. Forums aren't the place for essays.

[shortyalienx2]

I agree with you Bluchamp. Once people forget the dated animations and the spit and polish that Fifa has, PES 2009 plays a better game of football.

But only on Top Player or just below. If you play on beginner, which online is bizzarely locked to, the defensive AI parts like the red sea, and the goalkeepers are weak. But on higher difficulty levels the game shines, offline.

Ball physics are better and weighted more heavily instead of Fifa's balloon ball, AI is better at making runs and finding space, you can score all types of goals; play isn’t geared up for 1 on 1’s etc. It feels more like a simulation than Fifa as the speed is more realistic.

[AAtimedOUT]

At least add cliffs OP.

[wizia]

it's not about licenses but gameplay. i've played both and you have to be kidding if you think pes09 is anywhere near fifa09 in terms of gameplay. movements in pes are so unrealistic, it looks like you're playing with robots rather than football players. don't get me wrong, fifa is not perfect, it has a long way to reach it still but there's no comparison right now.

[Ledz]

Originally Posted by Eamer

No chance am I reading all that. Forums aren't the place for essays.

Carry on

[Nas-Escobar]

Originally Posted by shortyalienx2

I agree with you Bluchamp. Once people forget the dated animations and the spit and polish that Fifa has, PES 2009 plays a better game of football.

But only on Top Player or just below. If you play on beginner, which online is bizzarely locked to, the defensive AI parts like the red sea, and the goalkeepers are weak. But on higher difficulty levels the game shines, offline.

Ball physics are better and weighted more heavily instead of Fifa's balloon ball, AI is better at making runs and finding space, you can score all types of goals; play isn’t geared up for 1 on 1’s etc. It feels more like a simulation than Fifa as the speed is more realistic.

Took the words right outta my mouth. Spot on!


FIFA Fan since 1994,
-Nas Esco

[MrStacky]

Well Im completely different to everyone else. I do think this game has longevity. I have played over 500 online games and some of the online experience is frustrating because of a few glitches and exploits but with time I have learned how to counter those. I have learned how to spot a players style of play early and adjust my tactics to suit. I play with low star teams which gives me more of a challenge against all the 5 star cowboys and while I lose 2/3rds of the games I play because of this the style and type of football required to make a 2 star game against a 5 star game successful very rewarding.
Both MM and be a pro have given me a huge challenge. I started out taking Notts County from the second division to the top of the Premier division on professional level, then did it with World Class level and finally am fighting my way up on Legendary level.

Same deal with be a pro, Im now having to work very hard to improve my player on legendary mode.

I have been playing FIFA games since Fifa 97 and this is by far the best one so far. I have not played any of the other versions as much as this one. It was a good step up from 08.

Still the things I would like to see for fifa 10 are tighter reffing on fouls, less dependency on speed and strength for determining how good a player is and more emphasis on skill and passing accuracy.I
also have PES 09 and frankly its the worst PES game in ages.

[Ps3FifaCfc95]

Originally Posted by MrStacky

Well Im completely different to everyone else. I do think this game has longevity. I have played over 500 online games and some of the online experience is frustrating because of a few glitches and exploits but with time I have learned how to counter those. I have learned how to spot a players style of play early and adjust my tactics to suit. I play with low star teams which gives me more of a challenge against all the 5 star cowboys and while I lose 2/3rds of the games I play because of this the style and type of football required to make a 2 star game against a 5 star game successful very rewarding.
Both MM and be a pro have given me a huge challenge. I started out taking Notts County from the second division to the top of the Premier division on professional level, then did it with World Class level and finally am fighting my way up on Legendary level.

Same deal with be a pro, Im now having to work very hard to improve my player on legendary mode.

I have been playing FIFA games since Fifa 97 and this is by far the best one so far. I have not played any of the other versions as much as this one. It was a good step up from 08.

Still the things I would like to see for fifa 10 are tighter reffing on fouls, less dependency on speed and strength for determining how good a player is and more emphasis on skill and passing accuracy.I
also have PES 09 and frankly its the worst PES game in ages.

I agree with you more than the OP.

[Cheeky Hobbit]

I think FIFA could learn a thing or two from PES's legendary mode. It offers a little more information and creativity. Same thing with master mode, the pictures they have, like press conferences, and such, like to see it in the new FIFA.

[godsend]

some good stuff in there blu, and i just asked last week or so what if they both made the game together, can you imagine how good it would play and look.....if only cos none of them on their own is much cop

[laddsy76]

Is it worth getting PES on 360? It was my favourite game on PC and I completely ditched FIFA for it. Is it as good on 360 as the PC version? I am completely bored of FIFA at the moment. All the goals look the same and its far too hard to find any space on the ball in 10 v 10

[Mclovin619]

i wonder how many people actually read that

[Bicycle_Kick]

Originally Posted by bluchampblogger

Yet another long post from me. People who hate long posts, please look away. Having played both FIFA 09 and PES 2009, I'm now able to make a good comparison on both games. While both EA and Konami have things to learn from each other, I've mentioned below those things that FIFA can learn from PES.

It was all going fine with FIFA 09. I loved the game. I tweaked the game some more and it played like a charm. Then slowly, I started to feel that the charm of FIFA 09 was wearing off. I started to feel that the games are becoming more and more routine, no matter which teams I match up. I quit online FIFA 09 gaming long back. All the tweaks and edits helps the game a bit but does not do anything for the inherent weaknesses and blunders. I was advised to play manual controls which I did for a few weeks but still it did not quite please me.

I thought there was something wrong with the game and that thing was so hard coded that it could not be improved by smart ideas from users or what's already in the game. That's when I picked up Euro 2008 again. That was so much better and than FIFA 09. Playing as nations did not keep me interested for too long. Then I thought, let me give another chance to PES. I remembered how lalalala PES2008 was, but still went and bought PES2009.

As soon as I booted up PES 2009, five thinglalalala me. One - the pitch graphics is just amazing. Two - the pitch is so big. Three - the gameplay has been slowed down to perfect speed. Four - anything works as long as you play well. Five - the games can be completely random. The pitch graphics is the best I've seen in a football game. I have a 40" HDTV and FIFA 09 pitches don't look this good. In all the stadiums, you can play afternoon kick-offs as well which are the best. The night matches are such a beauty unlike the dark corridors in FIFA 09. Ah, how I love the pitch being so big. The size of the pitch gives a new dimension to the game. There is so much space to keep the ball, dribble the ball, draw defenders and create openings etc. It feels like real football.

PES 2009 has been slowed down by a great extent. PES 2008 was in frantic pace. It was just crazy. In PES 2009, I think they have hit the sweet spot with respect to the speed. It is not slow as sluggish or fast as hell but it surely resembles the pace of real football than FIFA09. It is the unsophisticated animations that gives us a feeling that this game is fast. I'd say this game is as fast as the real life football. Real football is slow in general and shows some bursts of pace depending on the situations. That's very beautifully captured in PES 2009. Now I can truly control the pace of the game, at least when I have the ball. I can knock it around among my defenders and midfielders and can quickly use my pace if I see an opportunity, just like real football. In FIFA 09, you have less of time and space, which makes it very unrealistic.

The great thing about pro evo is that it allows you to play the game the way you want to. There are no beaten paths, no routine play or boring build-ups. This is what gives us the famous PES promise of 'you'll never score the same goal twice'. I'm not trying to say that FIFA 09 is scripted but it works in a framework. It does not allow you to play freely. Don't get me wrong. FIFA 09 is a great game and it is seen as a more complete offering than pro evo. In FIFA 09, I get this feeling that the game wants you to play in a certain way and forces you to play that way. See, I'm a good football gamer and a very normal one too. I don't do flip-flaps and all that. I just play my game, the game I normally see on TV every weekend. FIFA 09 does not allow us to beat defenders. It's not that uncommon in FIFA 09 as it is in real life. You don't need to do flip-flap or a 360 degree spin everytime you want to beat a defender. In PES 2009, you can beat the defenders with your normal dribble. And I love that.

But beating a defender with the dribble does not mean you get no challenge. The defenders can catch the attackers purely based on the speed and strength attributes, and direction and angle of the run. All other things being equal, a man without the ball can run faster than the man with the ball. But the difference should not be too much because there won't be any attacks and if the difference is less then you'll have too many break aways and one-on-ones. Pro evo has got this spot on. The speed advantage is neither for the attackers nor the defenders.

You can play the style of football you want to, provided the players you are suitable for it. You can play one-touch-short-passing game, you can play a long ball game, you attack through the wings, you can split through the centre, you can play slow build-up game, you can shoot on sight etc. Basically what Konami tell us is, here is the set of things you can do, come with a combination of these things and score the goal any which way you want. Whatever PES2009 allows us to do, it allows to do them very very well.

Take shooting for instance, you can shoot from distance as well as from difficult angles, depending on the player that you control. Take crossing, it is so sweet in this game. It is a real weapon. In FIFA09, crossing was kind of discouraged by the way the game plays. Crosses are always useless so you stop playing that kind of game. In FIFA09, it's unnaturally hard to cut back from the sides. In FIFA08, it was way too easy and probably hence, they made it so difficult in FIFA09. In PES 2009, you can cut-back beautifully.

If you can attack so effectively in all these ways, do we end up with huge scores such as 10-8 or something? No, certainly not. Because, the defence behaves very well. They know exactly what to do as defenders. They are very smart in staying in their positions and cut down spaces for you to exploit. They also pre-empt your possible next pass and attack the passing lanes which you keep you guessing and provoke you to be innovative on the pitch. The defenders don't walk around disinterested. They play as if they certainly don't want to concede. In FIFA09, defenders were a big problem. They were made a bit ineffective so that you can score goals. The played up all the time and even with all the tweaks and tactics, it's hard to keep them deep. It's not the playing up that was a problem. It's their lack of pace while staying so up that made it all too easy for the attackers.

Basically, in FIFA09, the players who are not controlled by you, had only half brain. Which is why the defenders were not smart in moving to their positions and cutting the spaces. Similarly, you'll have attackers who don't make smart runs while you have the ball. Basically, the AI of your team mates lacked game intelligence. The FIFA players are not very dynamic. They are in fact, lazy and lethargic. This is the reason why the FIFA games do not produce the excitement of Pro Evo.

To be honest, I have really really enjoyed FIFA 09 but what I realise now is that it lacks longevity. The fact that FIFA has all the licenses make you play as various teams which will give you a feeling that you're experiencing variety in gameplay. If you play team A vs team B about 10 times continuously, you'll see that the games will pan out in a very very similar fashion. In comparison, PES 2009 plays a much more random game.

In contrast, the PES players are much better. They do close spaces in time and they do make intelligent attacking runs. I read somewhere that the AI off the ball player in FIFA does not make diagonal runs. All that it can do is to run in a straight line. The PES AI players run diagonally as well which creates a truckload more of possible attacking moves. In FIFA, the players that you don't control do not decide or act on your behalf. All that they do is run and not stand still. Only when you take control of them, they come alive. Whereas in PES, even the players that you don't control do think and act on their own.

I've heard quite a bit about people complaining about their team mate AI that gets sent off. That's because AI thinks on its own and it could be an aggressive player. You can easily resolve this problem by selecting the player that's closest to the ball carrier. So now you're the one who's is in a position to make a tackle or get sent off. It's your decision then.

I also love the fact that you can even play the long ball game. They can sometimes be very effective. You can time your jump and win the ball and can truly make it very effective if you have the kind of players that would take advantage of the situation. The other thing I like in PES 09 is that the set pieces can be very useful. If I get a foul outside the D, I don't have worry about the interruption of my attack. I can make that free kick really count. You have a variety of ways to deliver the free kick and they can be good fun. Quick freekicks are also implemented very nicely.

I get a feeling that this is the best football game ever. They seem to have fixed exactly those things which were the pain points of PES 2008. That's all they had to do. At the core of PES, you have a great football game. You may not garnilalalala with decoratives but you can certainly avoid making a mess of it with your extra efforts. PES 2009 is no way complete. It is lacking animations big time. Very limited number of animations mean jerky looking movements and arcadish looking game.

Despite all this, for me the FIFA 09 vs PES 2009 is over. PES 2009 is the clear winner by a country mile. The race is not as close as the reviewers are making it out to be. It would take some groundbreaking efforts in gameplay for FIFA to reach the gameplay levels of PES. Konami have understood the beautiful game lot better than EA. That's why PES 2009 is much more realistic and resembles real football than FIFA 09.

to put messi on cover

[Smoooooochy]

Originally Posted by wizia

it's not about licenses but gameplay. i've played both and you have to be kidding if you think pes09 is anywhere near fifa09 in terms of gameplay. movements in pes are so unrealistic, it looks like you're playing with robots rather than football players. don't get me wrong, fifa is not perfect, it has a long way to reach it still but there's no comparison right now.

you say its about gameplay but then complain about animations - which has nothing to do with gameplay. if that is your best come back its badly flawed....

[krisfolan]

LOLol